1. Engage in a blog discussion of "Dover Beach" by Matthew Arnold (uncle of our friend Aldous Huxley) and "Church Going" by Philip Larkin. Both have a similar theme, but what a difference in tone! These take time, but are both worth it -- two of my favorites in this book.
2. Answer the questions following the poems and bring them on Monday.
3. Say hello to March, the month that will bring spring!
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Although these two poems focus on the same subject, their difference in tones provide insight from two different views. The speaker in "Dover Beach" uses beautiful imagery and diction to express his grief and sadness over the dwindling faith in the church. However, the speaker in "Church Going" is very informal, and sees the lack of faith in the churches simply as another occurrence in life.
The lack of faith directly affects the speaker in "Dover Beach" as he is hopeless in saving the church. He is fighting to keep strong in his faith even though the world is trying to tell him otherwise. He is discouraged by the ignorance of the world. Through his vivid imagery, he is able to capture the sadness in his heart in a description of the sea in the first stanza.
The speaker in "Church Going" is merely an observer, and is not directly affected by the loss of faith as the speaker in "Dover Beach" is. When he first steps inside the church he describes it as just "Another church: matting, seats, and stone, / And little books; sprawling of flowers, cut / For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff” (3-5). Every church is the same to him because he simply looks at the objects that make a church a church; the pews, the flowers, the books. He doesn't sense a feeling of awe as most believers do when they step into a sanctuary. Compared to the speaker in "Dover Beach," the speaker is more curious and intrigued about what will happen to the church or who will be the last to enter the church for what it is meant for rather than apprehensive for the coming days when the church will completely diminish.
The speaker in Dover Beach was much more playful (like a puppy) sounding than the speaker in Church Going (like that mean dog that always tries to bite the mailman). I know Church Going holds much more thought and meaning than Dover Beach. But think about it. One is about a beach where I believed two honeymooners to be (Henry and Penelope Schoonmaker, actually) so this poem was full of light and airy meaning. Church Going was about the speaker thinking about his dank and musty church and what to do with it, and weather it would effect his belief. Dover Beach is all about the faith in lovers, like the Moulin Rouge. Church Going is your typical dull belief in your oh, holy faith. You know the faith that you think about for x amount of time in a room with ladies wearing cheap penny perfume with incredibly stale cookies for after the service. Both poems had oh, so lovely imagery, I actually closed my eyes and smelled the brine from the beach. I didn't close my eyes for Church Going, I know what a church is.
I don't find Church Going to be a man thinking about a decrepit church in a could-care-less sort of way at all.
To me it was a man who lost his faith and is trying to find something, anything to get it back. Or to find the answer as to why he lost his faith in the first place. He has obviously been to churches quite a few times (and hints that he used to go regularly with his knowledge of the customs).
The speaker says that he "always end[s] much at a loss like this/Wondering what to look for, wondering, too,/When churches fall completely out of use". That sounds like a man who is lost and is trying to find his way back. I think he notices the decline in religous faith and isn't looking at it like the speaker in "Dover Beach" (who is very very very bleak) but as a known end. The speaker in "Church Going" wonders about the future of churches because he know religion won't always be the focus of everyone's life. But he laments the fact that someday somebody will walk into a church because he "heard, [it] was proper to grow wise in,"
I don't know, it seemed that he wouldn't want a young man to walk into a church and become all profound and high'n'mighty because he was there. Sort of like how kids in our day read a book about existentialism and never shut up about how enlightened and new-age they are.
With all that said, I do find the tone to be more informal in "Church Going" and to have some level of bitterness in it. He definitely isn't in raptures as is the speaker in "Dover Beach"
Church Going:
Natalie, in my opinion Existentialism has told me a secret of which I think the entire world should know. But, perhaps you're right, the world really just wants to be left alone in its ignorant bliss.
The poem asked me, "What's the point of living if we lack seriousness?".
I completely understand Church Going's description of the "tense, musty, unignorable silence" which has "Brewed God knows how long" in many of our world's Churches, and still does to some fractional degree. This image reveals the sacred nature of any religious Church(save Scientology's). It made me think of how life without faith in anything can lead to chaotic aimless wanderings within the the abyss of a million voices all yelling at each other without any cohesion or harmony whatsoever. Sort of like those really trashy parties where everyone is drunk. The silence found at many Churches exclaim the respect and honor shown towards 'something greater than ourselves'.
"Superstition, like belief, must die, And what remains when disbelief has gone?". This statement reveals the fault of many religious faiths and, in the author's case, Western Christianity. If we analyze the statement further, we can say it is Christianity's unwillingness to evolve throughout history that has proven it incompatible with modern day thinking. The speaker alludes to the present attitude that reason, scientific evidence have deemed many of the mythical foundations of the Abrahamic religions useless.
"It pleases [him] to stand in silence [t]here". The seriousness, the reverence of the place draws the speaker to the Church to feel part of something larger than himself; in a way he is paying his respects. The place that brought all parishioners in so as to make them larger than their own individual selves is beautiful, "And that much never can be obsolete". The only way the human race has socially evolved has been through its becoming more and more connected as one body; i.e. the internet. In order for the human race to advance further, it must continue to honor the ideas that are bigger than individual humans, nations, and religions.
This poem shows that a world without that serious silence found in places of worship; that a world without worship of something bigger than ourselves is a meaningless world. The speaker has found the problem with a society forgetting to worship something larger than itself.
I think both of these poems are comprised of multiple layers, but in different ways. "Dover Beach" is more abstractly written. It took me multiple reads to fully understand the poet's meaning. The extended metaphor of the beach helps explain his ideas about religion and science. While the language is complex, the purpose is not. Clearly Arnold is devoutly faithful, and is expressing his personal objections to the direction modern faith is going in.
In contrast, "Church Going" is rather plainly written. One man is simply retelling his personal journeys, and explaining his ideas about the changes he sees in religion. It appears that he is removed from these opinions. He looks at it through the lens of someone on the outside who is not affected by these changes. However, there is something that continually draws him back to these churches. If really didn't care, why does he keep coming back? I'm not sure I have an answer for this, but I think it's an interesting question.
I feel like death. Probably won't see you all until Wednesday.
With all respect Erik, I have to disagree with you. Christian churches do not disregard scientific findings and are not stuck in the past. Maybe you just haven't been to an Evangelical or Baptist church before. I can't speak for the rest, like Catholic churches, but the church I go to, like many Christian churches, is very modern. If you define "modern thinking" as believing in evolution, then in that aspect, your premise that Christian churches haven't "evolved" with modern thinking is true. The basic teachings of the Bible, like loving your enemies, following and obeying Christ, being patient, kind, and so on, are applicable to anyone and to any era, so it does not need to adapt with modern thinking. Maybe your idea of Christian churches is some old guy with a priest robe babbling on forever about things that don't relate to our modern time and issues, but that’s not anything like the Christian church I attend or have ever been to. Christian churches are not incompatible with modern thinking!
And what Abrahamic "myths" have been proven wrong by science? As far as I know, the Bible has stood the test of time and has not been proven false by science.
However, I totally agree with you that living life without acknowledging something bigger than ourselves is a lacking life. We are not as big as we think, and there is definitely something more to life than fulfilling our own selfish desires.
P.S. I don’t mean to sound rude in any way, so don’t think I’m angry at you or that I’m offended by your comments.
Don't feel bad we are talking out of ignorance (well, if we've never been to a church before).
Dig, folks, dig. The focus here is on these two poems and the speakers within the poems. What are the clues to tone and meaning? Look at the types of metaphorical language, the diction (denotation, connotation), the types of imagery, and yes, even though we haven't worked on it, pay attention to the rhythm and sound. Read and re-read and get the LITERAL meaning down (what happens in each poem) before you leap beyond it. You trust me, right? And I LOVE these two poems -- why is that, do you think?
HI--
I love the poems we read where you can actually SEE and HEAR and FEEL what’s going on. Both are extremely visual, and in the case of Dover Beach, extremely auditory -- the words not only create a vivid landscape, but also a wonderful soundscape. We’ve all been to a beach before, and most of us have all been to a church before. But the poems push us over the edge and make us take a step beyond what we have seen to think about what they could actually mean in the eyes of the poets. I think it’s neat how both poets take familiar settings and use them not only as visual tools, but metaphorical tools to describe something greater -- Faith and the amount of belief people put into it.
The diction is significantly different in both poems. Arnold uses words that are rich and, I guess I’ll say “fancy,” or even archaic. Larkin’s diction choices seem much more laid back and a tad bit more colloquial (whiff, brownish, ruin-bibber? frowsty). Seems more conversational.
Both poets have differing beliefs. Arnold is a person who has a great deal of Faith and believes a great deal in his religion, even in the midst of a world upturned in disbelief. As I see it, Larkin, or whomever he is speaking about, seems to be drawn to the churches --which are all empty-- out of pure curiosity, wondering exactly how spirituality can fill out a person, and what will become of spirituality/religion in the future.
“Wondering what to look for, wondering, too, / When churches fall completely out of use / what we shall turn them into. (21-23)
The denotation behind the title suggests that the man merely “goes to church.” And the fact that he waits until “[he] is sure that there’s nothing going on” inside suggests that he is not in it for spiritual purposes. He also places an Irish sixpence in the communal tray, something that would be of no use to an English church -- says he is somewhat .
The fact that the churches are all empty suggest a decline in belief/faith, just like in Dover Beach, where religious faith during the time period has begun fading, as represented by the light on the far French shore that “Gleams and then is gone.” It’s nothing more than a flicker.
Larkin talks about people who only use churches for special occasions, such as Christmas, funerals, marriages, etc. Even though this “Church Going” individual --one who just meanders his way through churches-- is a “non-believer,” I think his overall tone suggests that he is disappointed in the decline in religious faith and belief in the time period. He admits to himself that he has no idea what this “accoutered frowsy barn is worth,” yet he realizes that “that much never can be obsolete.”
I think he is talking about faith here????? I probably should read it one more time... again :)
Michelle, I'm sorry if you feel I am attacking Christianity. I'm analyzing what the Englishman speaking in the poem would be thinking, and perhaps I go to far, but nonetheless it's what I think about when attending my Christian Church and reading my Bible.
I think my purpose in life is to over-analyze Ms. Minor...haha. All this Dostoevsky has gone to my head.
DOVER BEACH
The images of French lights glimmering over the Channel contrasting with England's majestic and rebellious cliffs instill immense emotions from history into those who recognize the two country's intriguing histories.
The note or allusion to Sophocles is brilliant here as well. I think the speaker is recognizing the dual nature summarized most beautifully in what Sophocles' compatriot Aeschylus proclaims as Life: "suffer, suffer into truth". It's teh constant "ebb and flow" or pains and pleasures, life and death, birth and rebirth.
The speaker then enlarges our geographical senses from the small Channel to the "Sea of Faith...round earth's shore". He capitalizes Faith here to denote the Christian Faith I think. It could very easily be called Faith in Life though. He concludes the next to last stanza with "Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar," which sounds exactly what you would expect the withdrawal of waves to sound like. The tone is elongated with diction here and placement of comma pauses.
Arnold picks up speed though as if revitalized. Adds an exclamation point to show despair, I guess, as the world, "So various, so beautiful, so new," - these words have to be said quicker as the exclamation points effects have not worn off - But, the world doesn't have "joy, nor love, nor light, Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help from pain"; the world must suck then...
The speaker despairs as the "darkling plain" encloses him completely. The darkness of the prose is reflected in the images it evokes and readers end most notably in despair; being pulled out to see by the drifting waves.
Where's the optimism?
Ha! Ironically this speaker has lost his FAITH in Life, in the world!
The tones of each author is certainly very different from one another. "Dover Beach" seems a lot more poetic and elegant. On the other side of things, "Church going" seems more to be a progressive description of observations.
The first stanza of "Dover Beach" is very romantic. Everything is described simply, yet beautifully. The night air is sweet. The cliffs of England are glimmering. Everything seems to be perfect.
This first stanza is a metaphor for belief. As time goes on, belief grows and then fades. It then repeats. To further support his claim, Arnold uses the idea of Sophocles on the vast Aegean sea thinking of the very theory that he himself proposed.
The idea of the sea being tied to faith is finally made clear in line 21. "The Sea of Faith" also exhibits the ebb and flow of the sea. For the speaker, he once saw that the world was filled with Faith. Now however, he only hears its "melancholy, long, withdrawing roar" as it leaves the earth. The speaker thinks that the world's is so far gone that all the pebbled beaches of the world (or of his mind and faith) are now exposed. He is yearning for somewhere with the Faith he desires. He doubts it's return.
"Church Going" takes on the very same issue, withdrawing faith. However, I think this poem seems to share the message in a different way. He seems to possess a certain respect for religion and faith. He does not enter until he is "sure there's nothing going on". Had he no respect for faith, his echoing "Here endeth..." would not have bothered him. He has a very reverent manner in which he approaches the church. Although, the word "stuff" seemed out of place.
He is cycling and stops to go inside. A church will not simply stop one person "just because". He seems to just be pondering these buildings that have been here for so long. The speaker wonders what will become of them when no one belives anymore. In fact, he wonders who the last one to seek out a church will be. He likes the church though. "It pleases [him] to stand in silence [at the church]".
This "serious house" has an eternal purpose to the speaker. In "Dover Beach" the speaker seems to fear that the seriousness of faith will never return. However, the speaker in "Church Going" seems to be more hopeful. "Someone will forever be surprising a hunger in himself to be more serious" and thus the church never can be obsolete". Though the majority may fade from using the church, the speaker believes that those who are seeking out something serious will always will be drawn to the grounds of past faith -- much in the same manner as the speaker simply felt that he should stop and go inside just "another church".
Both “Dover Beach” and “Church Going” clearly discuss the grappling with faith many people have gone through, currently go through or will ever go through. It is not an unfamiliar thing for one to question, with countless messages being thrown out into the world.
The speakers of both poems currently find themselves at a difficult point when it comes to their faith. The speaker of “Church Going” questions where his agonistic views are even the least bit relevant when it pertains to his existence. When he leaves the church after his period of reflection it seems as though he has lost all hope in ever gaining religious faith again in his life. He is not inspired by the sight of the church and feels as though he will never be able to personally believe. However, he does express a great amount of respect for those who have achieved this sort of faith that he is questioning. He signs the quest book, donates to the church and even takes of his hat when he enters, which one would not do if they were not at least trying to be a little bit respectful.
As for “Dover Beach” the speaker is also troubled by his lack of faith but he reveals that he is even more hopeless than the speaker of “Church Going”. He has found himself alone on a beach in the dark of night and cannot seem to pull himself up out of the darkness of his internal struggles. Also, while the speaker of “Church Going” stumbles into a church in order to find some answers (an obvious place to take oneself if they are looking for God or religion) the speaker of “Dover Beach” consumes himself in his thoughts by taking himself to a troublingly lonely place.
Clearly, the speaker in "Dover Beach" is more passionate about and more affected by the decline in faith in the people than the speaker in "Church Going."
In the beginning of "Dover Beach," the speaker looks out of his window from the cliffs of Dover at the peaceful sea. As the poem progresses, though, the speakers mood changes to sadness as "the grating roar/Of pebbles" reminds him of "The Sea of Faith," which "was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore/Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled." It is clear that he is not just speaking to a lover, but also to all people in general about faith. The last three lines are interesting, where the diminishing faith taking place is compared to something like a war. People are on a "darkling plain," continuously confused in their faith, "ignorant" and "clash by night."
"Church Going" is a much more conversational and less serious poem than "Dover Beach," made clear by the overall tone and diction used. The diction is far less formal. The title is meant to be very literal. The speaker doesn't seem like a serious churchgoer, but seems intrigued by the absence of people in the churches he has seen recently, which is why he continues to go back to them. Perhaps he is religious, but I think not, especially since his "reverence" for the church and God is "awkward." He seems more like a victim in Arnold's "ignorant armies," confused as to where he stands in terms of faith (he asks questions about the church throughout the poem). It seems like he likes that the church is unoccupied and cherishes the silence in which he dwells. When pondering "who/ Will be the last, the very last, to seek/This place for what it was," he wonders "will he be my representative,/Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt/Dispersed..." This shows that the speaker is ignorant when it comes to the church, but is "pleased to stand in silence [there]" and has more faith in it than he does such things as "marriage and birth," since the church has "held unspilt so long and equably." That might be a little far-fetched... I'm not too sure.
Thanks guys for all your input and insight on these two poems. It helped me a lot with the questions.
The tone that I got from the Dover Beach, at first is calm and tranquil. The first three lines of the poem gave you a setting of a perfect night at the beach. The tone slightly shifts in line nine when he says, "Listen! you hear the grating roar". You could sense a little chaos with "eternal note of sadness"(Line 14). Then the rest of the poem, the tone, I felt, was sad and melancholy. It took me a while to understand this poem because it was very bleak to me in contrast to Church Going, which was more direct.
The tone in Church going was more informal and critical. His tone sounded straightforward and blunt and he has the right means to feel the way he does because of the blandness of the church. When you think of church, you think of spiritual. There was nothing spiritual to me in this poem in contrast to Dover Beach which at least gives you the vast sea setting where you could sense a little bit of spirituality.
I liked these two poems. They're both different but they both have the same context which is great to compare and contrast.
Dover Beach-
In these first couple of lines, Arnold presents a beautiful and tranquil scene. He uses words like “calm,” “fair,” “stand,” and “sweet” to establish this mood.
In direct contrast to his peaceful and pleasing description of the seashore, the speaker begins to contemplate the movement of the waves. Arnold uses words like “grating roar” and “fling” to achieve a feeling of tension and energy. He moves from the visual images of the first lines to auditory imagery as he expresses a darker side of his thoughts. He describes the way the waves pick up pebbles as they move across the shoreline and deposit them again as the tide turns. The endless motion of the waves described in Lines 12-14 evokes sadness in the speaker and his helplessness to save the church.
Church Going-
I think the speaker in this poem relates back to Dover Beach because he is like the type of people that have lost their faith in the church. However, even though the language in Church Going has less eloquence, it shows a different perspective. Although his faith is not in the church, he finds value in perhaps a more scientific way.
Dover Beach really makes me want to take a trip to the beach. Maybe I won't come to class and I'll fly over to the Caribbean! Haha, I wish!
Like Nick said, the visual and auditory imagery in Dover Beach makes you feel like you are standing on the shore of the beach. I think Dover Beach has several tonal changes. It starts out with imagery related to the sights and sounds of waves, which constitutes to calming tone. In the second stanza, the tone becomes more serious. Then in stanza 3, the words “withdrawing”, “melancholy”, and “retreating” create a solemn and yearning tone. In the last stanza, the words “ah love” and “so beautiful, so new” contributes to an emotional and pleading tone. Overall, there is not a tone to describe the poem as a whole.
I had a hard time figuring out the tone of Church going. The speaker uses many negative connotations, such as "ghostly silt", "obsolete", and "unlucky places", which bring out a bitter tone. He also asks many questions in the poem, which also bring out a perplexed tone. Maybe the poem has two tone or the speaker has mixed feelings about church? Am I even close? Help!
Cpt. Seafarin' Sara, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. Dover Beach is not a playful poem, with its mention of "the eternal note of sadness" (14), "the turbid ebb and flow / Of human misery" (17-18), "melancholy, long, withdrawing roar" (25), "naked shingles" (28), and "darkling plain / Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, / Where ignorant armies clash by night" (35-37). And where do you see mention of lovers? I barely see mention of another person present; the person the speaker says "Listen!" (9) to. And that's assuming the speaker isn't just talking to the crashing tides below.
Also, I don't think that the speaker in "Church Going" belongs to that congregation. The speaker seems to be more of a stranger to the church, as they remove their hat in "awkward reverence" (9), muse tothemself about whether the roof is "cleaned, or restored?" (12), and finally walk up to the lectern and pretend to be a preacher. These all sound like things a casual visitor or tourist to a church would do.
As far as I can tell, the speaker in "Dover Beach" is completely serious and thoughtful. Contrastingly, the speaker in "Church Going" is witty and playful, with particularly notable phrases of "brewed God" (8), "awkward reverence" (9), "Someone would know: I don't" (12), and echoes that "snigger briefly" (16). Yet there is a giant tone shift in the beginning of the third stanza, where the speaker wonders about what will happen to the churches. While the prior wit is still present, "and let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep" (26), the sentiments are profound.
"Dover Beach" utilizes a very different tone than "Chruch Going." Dover Beach expresses the speakers helplessness towards an ever dwindling religious faith in his community and in the world. Being a very religious man, he experiences firsthand the effects that people such as Darwin were having on religion and how science began to create doubt in a mostly religious, faith based world. His tone is eloquent, but helpless at the same time-- a unique combination. He compares human misery to the ebb and flow of the tide. Also, there seems to be alliteration throughout the poem such as "tonight," "tide" and "full," "fair." These occur throughout the entire poem and I'm not sure if they have any meaning, but it carries a certain "sound" that Mrs. Minor told us to look for. Overall, Arnold's eloquence with his diction and his helplessness express his feelings towards the dwindling importance and belief in the church.
Church going on the other hand expresses an entirely different tone. It is seemingly conversational and the fact that it is told from one man's point of view is interesting. He uses words and phrases such as "Another church," "stuff," unignorable," and many more. This is a very informal tone, and in a way makes the poem much more personal. The speaker is in constant awareness of the state of the church, and for whatever purpose they are used, they will always hold a place in society. This, contrary to "Dover Beach," is hopeful and optimistic. He says, "And that much never can be obsolete, / Since someone will forever be surprising / A hunger in himself to be more serious..." There will always be a hunger in humans to visit a church-- for whatever purpose it may serve to them. I also notice, like in "Dover Beach," a repetition of sounds seen in word pairs such as "frowsty, worth," "stand, "silence," "recognized, robbed" and so on.
The most intriguing line to me within these poems is "Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow / Of human misery." I think he is comparing human misery to the tides of the sea in that they are both constant. You will never be able to stop the tides of the sea, and you will never be able to stop human misery, which in turn, births "The eternal note of sadness in."
I really really liked the imagery of "Dover Beach." After reading it...I just want to go to the beach.
Michelle, I would gladly NOT go to class tomorrow and go to the Carribean with you. Hahaa.
The imagery of "Dover Beach" painted such a vivid image in my head. All the auditory and visual images, "the sea is calm tonight/the tide is full, the moon lies fair" (1-3), "you hear the grating roar of pebbles" (9-10), and "where the sea meets the moon-blanched land" (8). I feel like "Dover Beach" had a more eloquent tone and diction choice compared to "Church Going" (like many who have already said).
I feel like the tone of "Dover Beach" was more bittersweet/melancholy as opposed to the tone of "Church Going" which I thought was more personal because he made the poem more conversational and less formal. I can't think of a word to describe "Church Going" though.
It seems like "Dover Beach" is more passionate and more upset about this decline in religious followers. Whereas in "Church Going" it's not as big a deal. I only think that though, because of the diction in "Church Going" -- "brownish", "awkward", and "bored."
And Alex, I really like what you said about the comparision of human misery and the tides of the sea. It's true, the tides of the sea are forever flowing and as is human misery--you can't have the good without the bad. But I never thought of it as the "eternal sadness."
I'm going to go out on a limb and most likely fall to my intellectual death here...
So now for something completely different...
I think that the “pebbles which the waves draw back and fling” in Arnold's Dover Beach represent the numerous people who struggle to find there place by medicating themselves with religious faith, and love. Each “pebble” itself is incapable of movement, and one of millions; a mere plaything for the gigantic wave of life. Religion acts as the antidote for the vulnerable state of realization that one is insignificant in the big scheme of things. Is Arnold suggesting that he realizes life for what it is, and is therefore tormented by the truth that he has come to? He seems to wrap himself in the warmth of his tangible relationship with his lover to protect himself from the stormy hell of confounding reality.
Could the title "Church Going" both refer to people who attend church, and to the decline of religious faith?
Larkin makes the point that a church without belief is like flesh without spirit. It becomes a mere meaningless physical object. He himself seems to feel like nothing more than a pile of flesh without the spiritual significance or meaning that some people find from attending church. It is suggested that the speaker himself is not a man of faith, as he removes his bicycle clips in "awkward reverence", but that he has respect for churches and religion. He apparently has visited many churches, as the poem opens with him saying "Another church" in line 3.
Help with the last line of Church Going please?
Okay, so I went back and looked at the poems more closely. I focused on how the stanzas were divided and what the rhythm in each line was. In "Dover Beach" Arnold did not have a set structure for the poem. The first stanza is comprised of fourteen lines, like a sonnet, yet it does not really have a normal rhyme scheme, like a Shakespearean sonnet. I think the lack of set rhyme structure adds to the speaker's tone. Many of you have mentioned before that the emotion in the speaker in "Dover Beach" is intense. The free rhyme scheme furthers this passion, which is evident through the vivid imagery and even the exclamation points he uses. On the other hand, "Church Going" is a very structured poem with seven stanzas all with nine lines each. And each stanza has a specific, although not uniform, rhyme scheme that makes each stanza more sing-song-y. This adds to the informality of the speaker's tone. And maybe even his structured questions or thoughts? Compared to "Dover Beach" I felt that "Church Going" was less passionate about the subject, but I'm not sure. Just the way it's written and the overall tone seems like just an observation, like the lack of faith is really not that big of a deal to the speaker in "Church Going."
I'm not sure if any of that is right. I just went out on a limb cause Mrs. Minor pointed out the rhythm and sound.
Dover Beach
The poem begins with soothing and beautiful descriptions of the landscape. But the final stanza
contradicts our initial emotions that are brought on by the description of the land. This land that is "so beautiful(32)," "hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light(33)." I think this means that although it is beautiful, it cannot return the love that you have for that inanimate object. It is the receding of the ocean(faith) that reveals new landscape and causes this love for inanimate objects. Even though these objects are the landscape in this poem, we can expect it to be representative of things like money.
The word "lie(31)" could have a double meaning because the "land of dreams(31)" lies to us and the objects that we think will make us happy never do. Also the word "seems(30)" implies the falsity of the "land of dreams."
Visual, auditory, and olfactory establish a soothing feeling with the setting until the speaker begins describing the waves hitting land and then withdrawing. Typically, waves help add a sort of soothing rhythm to a perfect evening but here the tone changes as the waves violently draw in the pebbles and then fling them back onto shore. I think this shift is used to give the impression that is humanity that is the pebble and is caught up in the "ebb and flow" of religion and fatih.
I don't know how many of you have been dragged in and tossed around by a wave but its certainly a helpless experience. I get this same feeling helplessness and not knowing which way is up from line 36.
My sense is that the pebbles represent humanity but I can't figure out a clear cut meaning for the entirety of the poem. Yes the "Sea of Faith" is named that to imply how faith has retreated of late but I feel like there is something more to it and I don't know what it is.
Church Going
The speaker clearly is doing some soul searching(pun intended).
The tone is less focused and less eloquent than Dover Beach. While the speaker goes to the church in search of worship, he/she is distracted by the many. This poem is very real in the sense that when most of us go to church, it becomes difficult to focus on what the preacher is saying and our thoughts wander. Maybe we go to church with the intent of devotion but its easy to be distracted. This poem is also real in the sense that the speaker is a realist, understanding that "superstition, like belief, must die(34)."
In my opinion, the speaker of Dover Beach is certainly speaking to a lover. The location of the speaker seems to be on a cliffside overlooking Dover Beach. The first clue that he is with someone is line 6, "come to the window, sweet is the night air!" Again in line 9, he seems to adress someone with "listen! You can hear the grating roar of pebbles" Also, the fact that the speaker seeks refuge in the warmth of love in the last stanza suggests that he has a lover. This poem comes off as very serious. Its use of vivid imagery and apostrophe could hardly be considered casual. The speaker rarely says anything that would be considered slang or a modern expression.
This is the essential difference in tone between the poems. The diction in Dover Beach is figurative and often archaic, while the diction in Church Going is very modern and casual. Church Going is lathered with casual expressions like "nothing going on" or "some brass and stuff up at the holy end." Diction choices like "stuff" "nothing going on" and "cycle-clips" give the poem a very casual and literal feel. When I read Church Going, I know that almost all of the things mentioned in the poem are literal, the door thudding shut is just a door, the organ is just a church organ, etc. However with Dover Beach, anything and everything could be something greater. This accounted for the essential differce in the experience of the two poems.
So in Dover Beach, the speaker is sad that faith is dropping, going from an ocean of people to a receding wave of people. The speaker loves the beach in a literal sense, and a figurative sense of the 'sea of faith'. And even though life is beautiful for him and he loves that, he's sad that faith is going away. He sees that faith gives people clarity and lets the world be seen better than what it is without faith.
In Church Going, there is this speaker who a lot more informal and more critical of what there is about the church that they see. They are more confused about why they do the things they do, and is more on the receding end of the ocean water than the watching end, like in Dover Beach. They are wondering how churches have become tourist traps and how more people come to church for something other than God, while the number of people who come for God is significantly lower than that.
Both poems are based on the theme of the slowly decline in religious faith. In Dover Beach, the poet Matthew Arnold mourns on people’s attraction toward the new scientific theories and confusing of what they should believe. In Church Going, Philip Larkin states the same idea of faith being abandoned. Unlike Arnold, Larkin uses a more dubious tone in his poem, representing those who are accepting contemporary ideas but still finds comfort in God. Arnold seems to criticize the changes that are happening. He worries that people will gradually be affected and lose their belief in God. In contrast, Larkin shows confidence in mankind. He believes that even if Faith seems to be in ruins deep down inside everyone will still unconsciously (like himself) believe.
The speaker in “Dover Beach,” is much more elegant. This eloquence can be found within the first stanza of "Dover Beach." “The sea is calm tonight, /The tide is full, the moon lies far...” (1-2). In this poem everything seems to be at peace and perfect. “Church Going,” is much more conversational and has more mundane language, “Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,” (18)
The use of imagery (describing a body of water) made me think of unstoppable, yet natural events in life. Going off of what Alex said about "the turbid ebb and flow / Of human misery," (17,18) I agree that "he is comparing human misery to the tides of the sea in that they are both constant," and because they come and go. (They are constant in their coming and going.) The tide will continue to move to and fro, and good feelings will replace bad ones, and bad feelings will replace good ones. We do not live life experiencing only one emotion. Our beliefs are similar. One who is unstable in his or her faith may feel it comes and goes like the tide. Strong forces and things (...terrible word choice) in nature (like seas and oceans) are unstoppable and unpreventable by man, which is comparable to our feelings. The last three lines gave me an image of lost souls searching, struggling and fighting in the dark. For these reasons, the tone seemed melancholy, lost, and somewhat powerless.
Church Going almost seemed to have a satirical or mocking tone to it... He focuses on the superficial descriptions of the church and its attempt to draw people in with its interior and exterior features. The attempts to improve the appearance do not lure in anticipated visitors besides those who are visiting. The speaker doesn't seem to have much hope for the church. He wonders "who/Will be the last, the very last, to seek/[that] place for what it was." I didn't get the impression that he intends to be that "very last" person, or any person to do this. He seems to put that responsibility on others, because he made the decision to leave the church and can no longer see himself being able to make that connection he once had. The way he describes the church just gives me the impression that he has given up hope.
"I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence/Reflect the place was not worth stopping for"
-He also seems disappointed, because he did take the time to stop by, but "always end[s] much at a loss... wondering what to look for" (19,20). Sometimes one will give up on searching and turn to a last resort, expecting to find answers or support. But when ones anticipated result does not become a reality, it can be more than just disappointing. It can bring about feelings of bitterness or hopelessness. The speaker seems to have previously had hope in the church; however, his descriptions of the "accoutered frowsty barn" shows his loss of genuine respect and admiration for a place he once saw as a place of worship.
What does the last line mean?
Grace, I noticed that too... I was expecting Dover Beach to be more structured and the stanzas to have the same amount of lines... but it didn't. I almost wish it did because it was so beautifully written and I like order. I agree that it adds to the passion, because it seems as if the speaker is not worried about structure.
I like how it focused less on the church itself, and more on faith. The speaker was giving a broad description of people lacking the ability to find purpose and meaning in life. They are all searching in "a land of dreams/So various, so beautiful/so new" but they are unable to discover "joy... love... light... certitude... peace... [or] help for pain." I don't think that the qualities of the church are nearly as valuable. Lack of a physical church does not mean lack of faith or purpose.
The tone of "Dover Beach" is certainly a negative, pessimistic one. He sets his poem at night when religion is known to be considered the "light." This light "Gleams and is gone" and in fact, "the world hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light." Though the speaker doesn't use extremely elevated diction, their is a sense of airs about him. He uses the metaphor of the sea rising and falling to explain the changes in "Faith" and "human misery" throughout time. The illusion is that the wrold is "a land of dreams,/ So various so beautiful, so new" but in reality it "hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light" or anything good.
The speaker is "Church Going" has a tone of melancholy, like he is visiting a place he used to go to a lot when he was a child. He uses more colloquial language. he acknowledges that church and religion are going out of fashion but is not as emotionally attached as the speaker in "Dover Beach."
Both authors use syntax to change the speeds of their poems and affect the moods.
I think that the tone in Church Going is far more casual than that of Dover Beach which is much more eloquently put. Arnold's imagery and diction are also beautiful as he describes the speaker who desperately tries to retain his conviction despite social pressures that try to discourage him. The sea description reflects the speakers emotions beautifully for instance.
Erik, i really like your logic, but I would like to add the word "rational" to your analysis. I think, if I am not mistaken, what you were trying to get at is central to our discussion: that religion is something rational in the minds of the faithful which provides structure in their lives and meaning. It's a sense of security at its very foundation.
James, where you say: "He looks at it through the lens of someone on the outside who is not affected by these changes," I may be mistaken but I actually detect a sense of attachment that doesnt even require being directly affected.
and Nick, "I love the poems we read where you can actually SEE and HEAR and FEEL what’s going on. Both are extremely visual, and in the case of Dover Beach, extremely auditory -- the words not only create a vivid landscape, but also a wonderful soundscape." - you deserve paychecks from Mrs. Minor. I agree though with you. These poems are very well written and there is a definite assimilation between the reader and the author when the poems are read. Emotionally, these poems are very powerful and the effect is amplified because they confront such profoundly complex topics as god and religion.
Tomas,
Can you elaborate on this:
"Both authors use syntax to change the speeds of their poems and affect the moods" ?
I also have one question for any of you late night people:
Do you think there is a relationship between the degree of order and the religious nature of a poem. Would a poem that is in favor of faith and religious conviction have more order in an attempt to reflect the nature of religion itself. I think this is a very interesting idea. Any thoughts?
It's possible. That's what I was wondering after reading Grace's second comment... But the two poems were written 100 years apart, and not intended to go together. Comparing the two, I got that impression but....Eh..... You know?
I'm too tired to explain and make sense at the same time.
IN church it seems to need repair and is in ruins. It seems to be attempting to recapture its onve beauty by using flowers inside the church.Larkin mentions a lot of old characteristics inside the church that led me to believe that this church was old and worn that had once been quite new and peopular. This man seemspretty involved, because he does stop at the church every week and sees the people that attend there. He says that he often stops, and walks into the pulpit to speak a few words and then leaves. He stops because he is curious why people still bother to go in its unworthy appearance.The tone of church going seems to be more of an analysis about the church and a background on it, while Dover beach has so much figurative language and goes in to such metaphorical detail about the beach and the scenery and the lights as well as allusions to Sophocles.
When I read "Dover Beach", I noticed a shifting tone. In the middle there was a sense of nostalgia, where the Arnold sees remembers the extent of faith, and the loss he sees of it : "The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd. But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,"
This idea of retreating faith was touched in "Church Going" as well. Here Larkin, although slightly confused by the rituals and intricacies that define the church, ultimately realizes that belief in a higher being, and an representative institution, are going to always be there.
After reading the questions Nima proposed, I thought about what Larkin's views of the church. I thought Larkin saw the church as a place where he could look up to, where he could find peace in chaos, where he could find a solution or understand a sort of deeper meaning.
When I read "Dover Beach", I noticed a shifting tone. In the middle there was a sense of nostalgia, where the Arnold sees remembers the extent of faith, and the loss he sees of it : "The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd. But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,"
This idea of retreating faith was touched in "Church Going" as well. Here Larkin, although slightly confused by the rituals and intricacies that define the church, ultimately realizes that belief in a higher being, and an representative institution, are going to always be there.
After reading the questions Nima proposed, I thought about what Larkin's views of the church. I thought Larkin saw the church as a place where he could look up to, where he could find peace in chaos, where he could find a solution or understand a sort of deeper meaning.
The difference between these two poems is that they explore the same topic with the same premise but in completely different ways. Arnold is very reverent, pensive, and mournful of the loss of his religion, or the loss of faith as he sees it. Larkin is different in that his speaker expresses much curiosity about the circumstances, there are a few "colloquial" words thrown in even though they don't seem like the type of words that would actually be used in any time or place. Larkin approaches the demise of faith with a scientist's attitude.
The tone I get from Dover Beach is very thoughtful and very sad, as if human kind is wasting away without faith. He describes the individual pebbles being flung back as a "grating roar": when I have been to the beach the pebbles getting sucked into the ocean have never created much of a sound much less a grating roar, I think that each pebble could be a person and that when all these people are leaving faith, treating it as come and go going into the sea of faith and then coming out, when all these people are leaving it becomes a roar. But in Arnold I sense a resentment of the human race, that it is our fault we don't take the world before us rather than the church's fault for not being goof enough. It is very sad, the poet focuses on human misery to a great extent, and on top of that he calls us all ignorant armies, I think he is just saying enjoy however you can best enjoy life. When these ignorant armies clash there is nothing good in the world. Perhaps with both armies being ignorant he is saying the church could change itself as well.
With Church Going the tone is much more adventurous (if that should be used to describe poetry, better word anyone?) the speaker approaches the church and the first few lines of poetry look like a screenplay from an Indiana Jones movie or something. To him reverence is "awkward" the tone, from the start, is that church is a peculiar thing to be looked at but not necessarily to be believed. Larkin's speaker wonders a lot of things but the one thing he takes for certain is that at some point churches will die, and then what after disbelief has gone too? That sets the tone that he is searching, but he may be part of the ignorant armies from Dover Beach as he assumes the end of the church and looks beyond it where as Dover Beach poetically explores the fading of the church itself.
Off of what Sharon and Grace both said, I think the structure serves to set the tone of each poem through irony. The speaker of "Dover Beach" is a religious and eloquent one, and the connotation of these qualities is one of order and control. It is ironic then that the structure of the poem is not clean and organized. This does show the passion the speaker has, in delivering his poetic monologue without concern for how it is structured, but it also adds a tone of helplessness. The speaker who has found order and comfort in religion feels his whole world turned upside down as he sees faith begin to dwindle around him. As Sean and some others have said, he feels much like the pebbles flung in and out by the sea.
In a similar way, but with the opposite effect, structural irony is used in "Church Going". The speaker who does not appear to be a believer sets his poem in perfect equal stanzas, each in flawless iambic pentameter and with an ever-present rhyme scheme. But my agreement is with Natalie in thinking he is a man who was once faithful, but has lost his belief through the years. The structure of the poem reveals his desire for what faith provided him with, what he has lost by straying away. As a result, the tone of the poem is one of yearning and disappointment.
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