1. Before class on Monday: Engage in a blog discussion of "A Valediction Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne. How does Donne use figurative language, diction, and imagery to develop the themes in this poem? Resist the temptation to use the web as a crutch to aid in understanding -- instead, work the poem and THINK about it. Also, read chapter five on figurative language.
2. Due Wednesday: Write a two-three page analysis of Donne's use of figurative language in "A Valediction Forbidding Mourning." Be sure to read the section in your book on writing about poetry before attempting this.
3. Be prepared to dive back into your group discussions. You'll have approximately 20-30 minutes together before presenting your poem and analysis to the class.
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Hi everyone --
I thought I’d post some definitions to start… mostly because I am incredibly confused :(
Valediction: an act of bidding farewell, or taking leave.
Mourning: To express grief.
Profanation: treating with abuse or disrespect.
Trepidation: A state of alarm or dread; also, involuntary trembling or quivering.
Sublunary: beneath the moon, or pertaining to the earth; mundane or worldly.
Hearkens: to listen attentively -- to hear.
I think the first stanza is obviously referring to dying men (or probably people in general), men who “whisper to their souls” that it is now time to move on. I get a sense of denial in the last two lines of the stanza; some people are accepting of death, and even though it is still painful, can bring themselves to accept the loss of a loved one, others cannot.
“While some of their sad friends DO SAY, / The breath goes quietly now, and some say, NO.”
I think the poem is suggesting that we should bid farewell to the ones we love without expressing too much grief. Love should transcend sadness, and grief.
Does anyone know what the “spheres” in line 11 are referring to?
In the questions after the poem it addressed what the spheres in line 11 mean: "Line 11 is a reference to the spheres of the Ptolemaic cosmology, whose movements caused no such disturbance as does a movement of the earth - that is, an earthquake"
I know that if you break a poem down stanza by stanza you can kill it, but I feel like I interpreted this wrong. So tell me if I make a horrendous error =]. And I'm sorry cause this will be LONG.
As men die, they whisper to their souls. Not tell their souls, but whisper. It's comforting and the way a man speaks to a close friend. The last two lines are interesting mainly because of the colon. Sad friends say "the breath goes now" which means they see death as the end of a life and nothing beyond that. When some say "no" I see this as that some people don't think you're put in the ground and that's the end of it; there's an existence beyond death.
The second stanza follows in the same thread because it's about accepting someone's death and not mourning. The reason they wouldn't mourn is because there's something beyond that the deceased can find comfort in.
The third stanza is saying that earthquakes bring "harm and fear" and men obsess over what caused it/what it meant. But the when the spheres move, it's more awesome and less harmful. According to Ptolemaic cosmology, the universe wasa bunch of nested spheres. Is it comparing an earthquake to a universe-quake and how men only consider what they can see and feel? If so, then this is also like death: they mourn when a person dies because that's all they can see. But the life after is something to be celebrated.
(Oh and did anyone see all of the natural disaster references? "tear floods", "sigh-tempests" earthquakes, and univese-quakes.)
The fourth stanza confuses me. What are "those things which elemented it"?
The fifth stanza seems to be talking about a love that transcends the physical body. Hence the two lovers who are so in love they can care less about "the eyes, lips, and hands to miss"
In the sixth stanza the main person in the poem sees himself as "one soul" with is lover and when he dies, tells her not to worry. They aren't seperated forever, just moved farther apart. His reference to gold is interesting because of its malleable nature.
The seventh stanza seems to offer a counterexample of the sixth. If two souls are not "one" with eachother as he claimed his is, then they are like compass needles. And if you hold two compasses right next to each other, their needles always point in parallel direction. Never touching. This can be a metaphor for people who aren't in such a deep love that their souls are one: when one person moves closer, the other person moves equidistance farther.
If the compass metaphor is continues into the 8th stanza, it seems that he's referencing it to when a compass needle always reaches for the magnetic pole. When the other soul moves away (as in death), the compass needle will reach for it.
The 9th stanza (and last one woohoo!) reminds me more of the sort of compass used to draw circles. Is my last interpretation of the magnetic compass wrong? I don't know exactly what it means, but it's when the main person leaves, his true lover will be there always. Like those drawing compasses, the two legs always retun to each other. Okay, that might be a stretch...but I don't know what else it could be.
This whole poem seemed other-worldly (if that's a word...). Everything seemed to relate how there's something deeper beyond what our senses can understand.
Sorry this is so long!
Nick - Thanks for the definitions! I definitely had to look up some words too, and found that they had double meanings, which Donne effectively used. I'm thinking that the "spheres" in line 11 are referring to the planets? If you look at line 9, it says, "Moving of th' earth brings harms and fears" (9). Also "trepidation" I found out is a term used by astronomers describing the oscillation of equinoxes (which uh I don't really understand).
The speaker of this poem is telling his lover not to mourn their separation. I think the speaker is going on a journey, (?) and he is reminding his love that their love is stronger than anything of the earth. Their love is more than physical, that if they are not together in body, they are together in spirit.
One of the things that stood out to me was Donne's imagery. The types of imagery we have studied are not typical in his poems. He uses more scientific and religious references than any other. For example, in the second stanza, the words "profanation" and "laity" both have a religious connotation. As Nick mentioned, "profanation" means to disrespect, but I found out it stems from sacrilegious ideals against the church. "Laity" means people of not of the clergy, or common. I think the use of these words emphasizes the notion that the two people's love is holy.
In the third and fourth stanza, Donne refers to the planets and astrology. I haven't yet quite figured out the meaning of the third stanza, but the fourth stanza kind of brings it together. By choosing to use "sublunary" rather than "earthly" or "common", Donne ties back into the previous stanza. The fourth stanza is saying that the lovers who are of the earth, or more based on physical attraction, can't endure being apart from each other, because then their love disappears.
In the fifth stanza, the speaker's tone changes. With the word "but" he begins to speak of their love, and how it is not like any other love. I don't know if this is right, but he ends this stanza with metonymy, when he refers to the parts of the body. "Care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss" (20).
The sixth stanza has one of the strongest imagery in this poem. The speaker references gold, and compares the love they share to gold expanding. When gold is beat to an airy thinness as the speaker says, it does not break, but it expands and grows. I think the speaker is reassuring his lover that even though they will be apart, their love will grow like gold. The use of gold rather than any other metal was interesting to me. Gold to me, is something that is precious or highly valued. So I'm thinking, Donne used gold to signify how valued the love is.
The last three stanzas all refer to one image, a compass. At first, I thought it was a compass that gave directions, and thought, "Okay, their love guides them when they are apart or lost." However, I didn't understand what the "fixed foot" was. Then I thought that it could be a geometric compass, one that is used to make circles. Donne uses the image of a compass making a circle to show the connectedness of their love. They are adjoined at the top of the compass, and are never separated. "It leans, and hearkens after it" (31). When one of the legs of the compass moves, the other moves along with it. And as many of us know if you pull out one of the legs, the other leans towards it in order for it to make a circle. I love this imagery because it is so unique and clever.
Donne's diction also brings into mind the kind of compass that gives direction. In line 30, he uses the word "roam" which made me think of a wanderer who is lost, and therefore needs a compass to see where he is going. This ambiguity adds to the lover's love.
Thanks Nick! After reading this poem, I was lost. Donne uses language that is almost explicitly scientific... and I had to look up a bunch of words too.
I agree with your guy's analysis of the first stanza. I too thought it was referring to a person and how he is telling his lover not to mourn his death. The last line if the first stanza stuck out to me the most in this one because of the imagery that Donne uses. "The breath goes now, and some say, no:" You can almost hear the breath which is almost like a sigh right before someone dies in the movies... The second paragraph continues this theme of letting someone go. Here, Donne uses some pretty clear visual imagery when he said "let us melt, and make no noise" I dont know about you guys but I see a clip from Planet Earth where all the ice is melting in a time lapse and that to me in a way symbolizes his physical body decaying away.
Donne uses words that seem too scientific to be used in a poem about love and how the soul of a man and his lover will always be a part of eachother even if their bodies are not. He uses words like "trepidation" (11), "spheres"(11), "sublunary"(13), "breach" and "expansion" (23) and more. Just by looking at those words alone, it seems like Donne is writing a scientific report! Could Donne use such complex language to maybe convey a sub message of how complicated love can be?... OR NOT.... hahah just taking a stab in the dark.
Throughout the last three stanzas I noticed that the poem focuses around one central object. A compass. Donne uses diciton throughout the whole poem that is relevant to a journey or adventure and ends the poem by talking about a compass. I think the compass is the love that the lovers have in their hearts. Donne is almost saying in the second to last stanza that even when the other is far away, the heart yearns to be near it so it is pointing to the other heart. "And though it in the center sit,; Yet when the other doth far roam," It leans and harkens after it." Although Donne is talking about a compass and the poles of the earth, I think he is also talking about the love 2 people share.
This poem made me think of men going to war. Those at home mourn their absence, but are told not to mourn by their lovers who "validate" the love they share, even if they are going to be far away from one another.
The word mildly in the first stanza was interesting to me. I don't get the feeling that Donne is talking about dead men. Men leave mildly; softly, gently, and without seriousness. "some of their sad friends do say, the breath goes now, and some say, no..." This seems to say that as men leave, some see it as the last they will see of them, but some keep faith with them and hope for the best; hope for them to come home.
I agree with Grace about stanza two. "'Twere profanation of our joys to tell the laity our love." It's like it would ruin the meaning of their love if it was exposed. The first part of the second stanza seems to be telling loved ones to be calm. ?
In the third stanza, I think Donne is relating the movement of the earth to the separation of the two lovers, bringing "harms and fears" and "men reckon what it did and meant," but the tremulous fear ("greater far") is not purposely caused, it is innocent. Donne could also be talking about war, but the cause of war is never really innocent, so I don't think that's what Donne is talking about, here.
"Dull sublunary." Dull could mean several things: boring, dim, not intense, unfeeling, slow... and sublunary is "pertaining to the earth." "Whose soul is sense," to me, means 'a functioning soul.' Perhaps the fourth stanza means a true lover cannot admit the complete absence of a lover, because that would deteriorate it, also absenting the things which created it ("those things which elemented it"). One without a soul admits absence and let's their love go.
I think the fifth stanza is saying their love is more than just "eyes, lips, and hands to miss." Here, he is assuring her of their love; that it isn't just the physicality, like Grace said, that makes up their love. Their love can continue no matter what, if they let it. Their love is refined: "free of impurities, free of vulgarity, subtle, and well-bred feelings exist within."
The sixth stanza compares the two lovers' love to gold that has been beaten to airy thinness. Although it is no longer visible, it still exists just as valuable as it was before, like their love shall be when he leaves. Their love is not breaking, it is merely expanding like airy thin gold.
In the seventh stanza, I believe Donne is saying that if lovers don't act like one, they will be forever parted, like a "stiff twin compass." A "fixed foot" does not move, like a dead soul and dead love; if that foot moves, so does the other, just as far away as one another. I picture a directional compass here, due to line 26, where Donne says "twin compasses, which will always follow the same path, but are infinitely separated by the case that surrounds them. This reminds me of the word parallel (as did the seventh), which can be confusing... two things that "never converge or diverge," yet always follow the same path, so close but never touch.I'm not too sure about my analysis of this stanza... ? When I read "if they be two, they are two so" I got the feeling that Donne is saying if two things are two, separate, then separate they remain.
In the eighth stanza, I am not sure what "in the center sit[s]." I picture a geometrical compass in this stanza, one that moves creating a circle. As one end of the compass moves, the other moves equidistantly, "it leans and hearkens after it, and grows erect, as that comes home."
I agree with Natalie, here. In the last stanza, he is requesting this of his lover: to act like a geometric compass with him, remaining connected, instead of like a directional compass that is forever separated. "Like the other foot, obliquely fun; thy firmness makes my circle just, and makes me end, where I begun." I picture of a geometric compass making a circle, both points ending following one another and ending where they begun.
This poem was amazingly sweet. I enjoyed it.
I cannot decided whether the poem is about the speaker telling his lover not to mourn his looming death, or his absence, as in his going off to war or something along those lines. Though, I think it’s clear that his message is he does not want his lover to be brokenhearted over his departure, regardless of if it is for good or just an extended period of time. He reminds his love that although he must leave her, “our souls therefore, which are one / Though I must go, endure not yet” (21-22), meaning they may be apart but their souls will forever remain as one together, even if they cannot physically be in the same place. He is sort of saying that distance should mean little when someone means as much as they do to one another. Regardless of how well the speaker convinces his lover that they will be okay apart, he seems hesitant himself.
"Thy firmness makes my circle just, / And makes me end, where I begun” (35-36). The speaker comparing their love and longing for one another to a compass, saying that the foot of the compass is always the same distance away from the center, never further, which means the same thing when dealing with their souls in spiritual love. Because they are truly in love and it is a sort of spiritual love in which you feel in your soul, they will never lose one another and always find that they will be pointing towards each other. This is a very abstract conceit of sorts.
Skimming the surface of the poem, it seems to me that Donne used a lot of diction that seems descriptive of nature. When I think of that, nature, I often think of simplicity and light. Essentially, nature is simple in the sense that it is untouched and in its original form of creation, so to speak. It is able to reveal truth and beauty, for nature has an incredible ability to clear ones head. This is much like light, and love. Light because light penetrates darkness and reveals everything. Love is like that too. Being truly in love with someone, I suppose, means they know all sides to you and they shinned the light into your darkness and pulled out the truth. That is why the diction closely mirrors language that would describe nature, because it reveals the lover’s love in its most raw of all forms and brings it into the light.
I like the contrast in the speaker's discourse concerning physical love and metaphysical love.
Specifically stanza 4:
"Dull sublunary" lovers are stuck between the Earth and the other-wordly... Taking into account the poems's Renaissance origins, the author's knowledge of the aforementioned celestial "spheres" makes his poem all the more powerful.... Back to love, the author and his/her lover are obviously not of the "sublunary" but are lovers beyond "eyes, lips, and hands" - they are beyond the physical - beyond Earth. They've kicked themselves loose of Earth's gravity and its physical confines. They do it by a "love so much refine". The lovers of the physical cannot "admit/ Absence" of the physical connection, for "those things" are what "elemented" and made their physical love possible. The celestials' love is so much more, so much more spiritual than the "dull sublunary lovers'".
THEY'RE STARS, whereas others are but grains of sand.
This guy, this woman, this lover, this speaker is quite proud of the two's meta-physicality. And you can feel that through the allusions of "spheres" and "sublunary" invigorating such immensely powerful images.
I know there are parts about love. But I don't know if its false love or true love.
Nick, as usual an excellent analysis of the poem, you really get this stuff. I really don't get this stuff but here is my attempt at it. The first stanza is fairly clear and it seems to me that the overall feel of the poem is that death is something that is necessary, and rather than the usual "acceptance of it" I think he is asking us to embrace death in some ways. In this I think he has a very Eastern view on death. I know that Ms. Minor is I think Klingon on death or some other Star Trek creature so maybe she can give her opinion too, but back to my point.
In Western cultures, specifically Christian ones, the goal is to attain eternal life either on Earth or in heaven or somewhere. The bible specifically says that you can get "eternal life through the savior Jesus Christ" that's probably misinterpreted at least a little bit so help me out there (Jonathan), but I think it is more or less true. In Eastern Cultures specifically Hinduism and Buddhism, there is reincarnation and the goal is a true death, or nirvana. This may seem odd but there is a certain beauty to death in India that I don't see here, people are upset they have after all lost their loved ones but it is REALLY more a celebration of life than a mourning of death. Traditionally there is nothing unnatural about death there, especially because many eastern cultures made all of their medical advances in homeopathy and using nature to cure rather than synthesizing chemicals and such, our ancestors had shorter lifespans but also less worries and no prolongation of life with respirators and stuff. Again it comes back to the concept of accepting one's death versus embracing it.
I sense that if you just accept your death it is not enough, those are the people who say that they know they will die someday, but will put all manner of riddiculous chemicals in their bodies to prolong that someday. There are also those of course who resist death, and then the last category of those who embrace it. If you can "whisper to your soul" that it is time to move on, it is those people who are ready for death and in the Hindu manner see the beauty of being released from all earthly obligations. Well my analysis was not really that related to the poem sorry, but maybe y'all will find it interesting.
I really liked this poem; it was sweet but there was just something about it.
First off, the first thing I realized when I read the poem the first time through was a lot of difficult/different vocabulary. So Nick, thank you for the definitions. From his diction, I got a sense of nature/mother earth. "tear-floods", "earth brings", "spheres", "elemented", "gold to airy thinness", and "wilt." I'm not sure what to make of his diction choice, but I really liked Lauren's analysis of it.
It's also hard to tell whether Donne is talking about death of just farewell. I don't understand the title; how can a mourning be forbidden? It just seems cruel. When I saw "forbidding mourning" I thought of like young kids in love and they were separated because their parents didn't want them together. And their parents didn't allow them to be sad about it. That's just the feeling I got.
I really liked the sixth stanza though. Not a breach, but an expansion. Hey, distance makes the heart fonder, right?
I was reading the poem again and I think it IS referring to a drawing compass, the kind that creates perfect circles. (Oh, Thank You, Natalie, for answering my question :)
“Thy soul, the FIXED foot, makes no show to move…” I think this fixed or stationary foot is the needle part. The idea of the compass is continued in stanza 30. “And though it in the center sit / when the other far doth roam / It leans, and hearkens after it / And grows erect.” You can see the pencil slowly spinning around, creating the circle, and as it slowly completes the line, the other part slowly starts to straighten out.
In line 35 they go on to say that “firmness” makes the line--or circle--appear.
I’m not sure what the last three stanzas involving the compass would be classified as -- Conceit or extended metaphor?
There are two parts to a compass. I think each part represents a piece of the lovers in which the poem is referring to. The part that reaches out from the center, the piece that draws the circle, is the soul that is preparing to leave this world. They are leaving the person whose soul is unmoving or “fixed in the world. But even though it stays fixed in the center, as the part moves farther and farther away from the center, the center piece will inevitably falter.
The poem describes “dull sublunary lovers,” or people whose love is only worldly-- purely physical, one dimensional, “whose souls are [nothing more than] sense,” or thought. But the speaker goes on to say that he and his lover experience a life filled with “refined” love, love that apparently transcends our physical world, even when one journey’s off with Death.
The speaker is obviously the one that is departing… “Our two souls, which are one, though I must go… endure not yet a breach, but an expansion.” Breach means a failure to maintain. Therefore, his death will not break their love; it will allow it to expand and evolve into something otherworldly. Like Eric said, you get this feeling via the images of the great planets or “spheres.” It all feels very mystical/supernatural.
I think all of your insights are very interesting. Honestly when I read this poem I thought the guy went to a funeral and got really drunk and wrote a poem about why you shouldn't mourn. It seems pretty simple if you just look up every word and put it together. I'm sure there's a deeper meaning and I'm exhausting all my energy trying to analyze each metaphor and figure of speech, but as of now I sadly have nothing to report. I just keep reading it over and over, slower..
Harish, I liked your take on the poem as it relates to various cultures, and I think that is part what he is talking about. As he states in the first stanza, there are different ways to view your own death and the death of others.
I think that the contrast between "physical lovers" and "metaphysical lovers" is his main focus. In the fourth stanza Donne describes physical love as "Dull" and "sunlunarly". When these lovers depart, it is especially painful because the aspects that defined the relationship are lost when someone dies. As compared to stanza's two and three, which describe a parting not so mournful, but celebretory. Donne suggests in stanzaz 2 and 3 that we should "melt and make no noise", i.e. accept death as inevitible and innocent. There should be no grieving in death, "no tear-floods. nor sigh-tempest move", for if you truly metaphysically loved the person dying, the things that defined your relationship would not be entirely lost by death.
I thought that the conceit in the last three stanzas was powerful, comparing him and his lover to a pair of feet. when he says, "thy firmness makes my circle just, and makes me end where i begun." I think he is saying that she defines his existence with her (firm? unmoving?) soul. As you could imagine, if you walked around not moving one of your feet as much as the other, you would end up walking in a circle, back to where you came from. Here, Donne walks his life with his lover, and eventually ends up where he started, not alive. Donne does a great job of taking something so abstract, and intangible, as love, and puts in into physical terms we can understand. I might be wrong about the whole foot thing, but that's what I got out of it.
I agree Grace mostly on her analysis. I believe they are two lovers forced to part. What exactly causes their separation is unknown (at least to me) but it could war, or circumstances like that, or as Mrs. Minor says, "the big sleep". After reading what Natalie said about the spheres and Ptolemy, I believe this is referencing the idea that the movement of one of the pair is bound to profoundly affect the others'. It's impossible to not be changed or upset by such a shift in one's life, but the narrator is urging his true love not to dwell on the sadness of their separation, but instead to celebrate the happiness they shared.
Well...I started writing my first post before the compass argument was discussed. It seems that it is much more likely that the compasses in the third to last stanza are discussed again as feet. This would also mean that my observation that the foot discussed was a body part, is wrong, and that the foot is not really a foot, but a reference to the center of the compass. In my defense, you would also end up in a circle if one of your feet was slower than the other. People get lost in the desert that way, and that's a fact.
This poem is about two lovers that are separated when one of them has to go on a journey.
We know they're lovers because of the line “But we by a love so much refined” (17). The “but” contrasts these true lovers from lesser lovers. And there are certainly “two souls” (21) involved.
We know one of them has to go on a journey because the figurative language tends to hint towards a journey. Right in the beginning “men pass mildly away” (1). The figurative “gold to airy thinness beat” (24) can be interpreted as two people that were close, but were forced further apart.
I also see this poem in a way much like Harish. I agree that far too often in Western cultures, we mourn, cry, and grieve over death to an almost extreme extent.
I recently attended a funeral of a beloved family friend. I sang in a choir and I could not help but cry. Surprisingly however, they were tears of joy and faith rather than grief or sadness. I sat with the choir and looked out on the "laity" of people at the funeral. We filled an entire chapel and then some. Many were in tears, but the one person in the room with a bright smile was our family friend's dear wife.
I think Donne is talking about love and how true love extends beyond this life. Stanza 4 particularly addresses this subject matter. Whilst looking up the many seemingly ancient words, I ran across a few defintion for the word "sublunary". While the most applicable definition is a reference to being heavenly and between the earth and moon, it has another meaning, fleeting. So, perhaps stanza 4 is telling us that those who mourn in great grief and anguish were rather in a state of fleeting love rather than true and everlasting love. In the absence of the lover, the love waxes weak rather than strong. The element of being together in life was all that made it "love".
I feel as though the compass metaphor was more of a conceit. I also agree with the fact that it is a mathematical or geometrical compass. As Erik pointed out, this poem comes from Renaissance times. I think of Galileo gazing into the heavens with his telescope, and for some reason, a compass.
While I cannot honestly say I have a firm hold on just what this poem means, I can say I get something out of it. With my Christian background, I do believe in a life after death, a plan for eternal life and salvation of men. It is because of this belief that we should remember and embrace, rather than mourn and grieve. I beleive Donne is saying that death is not the end, rather it is a test of love.
This was a confusing poem, still is actually, but it is a good one with many peices of advice we can all use in future times.
"Terence's" theme keeps on being validated, poem by poem.
Nice thorough analyses! It really helped to read through everyone's thoughts. There were lines I didn't really understand when I first read this, but they make more sense to me now.
Most of my ideas have already been shared. I did notice a line that could be a synecdoche and a metaphor and personification in line 3: The breath goes now.
And: "Dull sublunary lover's love cannot admit absence.."
"Whisper to their souls to go" - Personification
"But we by a love so much refined... Care less eyes, lips, and hands to miss." -This is my favorite stanza. It makes the poem different because love poems and songs always seem to focus on the eyes, the hands and the lips to describe intimacy. It's kind of strange how their love is "so much refined," yet they themselves "know not what it is."
I also thought he was talking about directional compasses at first. I was wondering when compasses would ever come in a pair.. For some reason I didn't think of the other kind..
Sorry I don't have many original ideas to contribute. I still want to read it over several times.
First off, I think that the others who have posted before me have analyzed this poem really well and hit almost everything in the poem.
The poem is about a separation between two lovers. A separation that isn't permanent, but still creates mourning and sadness. The stanza beginning with "Dull sublunary lovers' love," shows that people who aren't in true, undying love will fail during absence-- "cannot admit absence, because it doth remove those things which elemented it." However, the following stanza talks about the love between the author and their loved one. Their love that is "so much refined," so "inter-assured of the mind," can withstand any leave of absence. That the absence will not test their love, but there will be "an expansion like gold to airy thinness beat."
And then comes the stanzas referring to the compass metaphor that Nick so excellently analyzed.
When I first read this poem I was very confused, but after I re-read it a couple of times it made a little more sense.
I agree with the people who said it reminded them of lovers being torn apart by war. The first stanza gave me this impression because of how the men were described as "virtuous,” meaning good and some accepting their death as they "whisper to their souls to go."
The love of "dull sublunary lovers" cannot survive separation, but "care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss." I think he is saying that physical part of love does not matter any more and it is so refined that we do not know what love truly is.
Though he must go, their souls are still one, and, therefore, they are not ending their love, they are experiencing an "expansion." He may be telling her that if they can get through this then their love would be stronger than before. He also refers that gold can be stretched by beating it "to aery thinness," the soul they share will simply stretch to take in all the space between them.
So that’s what I have so far...it was helpful reading everyone’s analysis!
The poem is about mourning the loss of someone. The first stanza is about how the it's easier for the dying to take this than it is for the ones that the dying has left behind.
The second stanza refers to how to love someone will hurt more when they are gone, and telling anyone that you love them before you die will destroy them. But there is something about 'laity' that's striking, it almost sounds like 'lady' to me. Maybe I'm pronouncing it wrong.
But there was also something in line 20 'care less eyes, lips, and hands to miss' that be taken multiple ways. There is the interpretation of 'care less', where it can mean forgetful or clumsy, in which case the dying/dead person will miss the touch of the living person's love or physical touch, or it can be taken as to not care about those things, where they don't care about the physical things that will be missed from the living person.
The last three stanza once again relates back to a physical form and a spiritual form. The relationship between the soul, and in this case, feet, connects I think with the journey of life. The last line ' And makes me end, where I begin' makes a reference to a literal circle (where you have to complete the circle by connecting the beginning and the end) and also to how life ends, and the journey after that begins.
Hey guys, thanks to all who defined the words, it helped a lot!
This poem has so much to it. His diction and the way he arranged each phrases were just powerful and so captivating. While I was reading this poem, I was picturing a man whispering the whole time because his tone is so quiet, low, beautiful, in love, peaceful and assuring. "Inter-assured of the mind, care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss" (19). He uses the word "dull" to describe the opposite of his love and how they "cannot admit absence, because it doth remove those things which elemented it" (14). This basically connects to the title and how it's "Forbidding Mourning" because as Lauren greatly put it, "distance should mean little when someone means as much as they do to one another" and that's what true lovers are. And that's basically the general overview of the poem.
Now, to the compass part. At first I didn't really understand it. I was trying to imagine two compasses and trying to use his descriptions and it didn't real make sense to me, until I read what some of you guys have said. I liked how Grace pointed out the geometric compass and instantly, it made sense. After getting it, I realized how amazing the metaphor was. It's intelligent but yet so simple. It even greatly intensified the meaning of lovers and how they're not bound by physical and in some power, greater than our senses, there's a connection that happens between true lovers that makes mourning somewhat forbidden.
It was really helpful reading all the analyses (is that the plural form of analysis?)!
I agree with Nick and Natalie about the central message of the poem. I think the poem is about enduring love and death/separation, but I'm still confused if its about those two things, or just about one of them, or something totally different. Does anybody know the answer?
Anyway, I think the usage of metaphors is one of the main ways Donne uses to convey his message. The metaphor in stanza 2, "Moving of th' earth brings harms and fears", seems to be comparing passing away to two things, the literal rotation of the earth (passing of time) and also to earthquakes, like Natalie mentioned. These events are obviously a normal part of life and something that people worry about. I think that through this metaphor, John Donne is trying to say that like the passing of time, death and separation is a part of life and that we should not be alarmed by it, but instead, embrace it.
I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but it seemed like the topic of each stanza switches with alternates. The first one talks about death, then the next stanza talks about love, then the next talks about death again, and so on.But I'm probably totally off.
I feel like I'm going to kill the poem if I over-analyze it!
Nick-Thanks for defining those words! The poem makes a lot more sense now.
Natalie- I never noticed all the references to the natural disasters. Thanks for bringing that up. I think this might be very important to the poem.
Lauren Deits- When I read the poem, I didn't really understand the last stanza. Your analysis of the last stanza was helpful. Good job!
I really liked everyone's analysis of this poem. It was really helpful because my mind was stuck on the idea that the poem was only about death so I was pretty confused.
I think Megan mentioned the line "Twere profonation of our joys to tell the laity our love" meant that their love would be ruined if it were exposed. I think this is a correct analysis but I'm having trouble figuring out how it fits with the rest of the poem. Any ideas?
Thanks everyone, the first time reading through this poem I was struggling to identify its meaning.
After looking at other comments I went back through it a couple times and noticed certain words like "pass mildly away," "refined," and "wilt." These words gave me the impression that this poem is about two elderly people and one of them has past away. I think there is a double meaning for the word "wilt," it's literal meaning is to grow old and its meaning in terms of the sentence is will.
Although Mrs. Minor said not to rely on the Internet, I though this information that I found may help some of us understand better about this poem. “John Donne wrote "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" to his wife, Anne More Donne, to comfort her while he was in France conducting government business and she remained home in Mitcham, England, about seven miles from London.”
I think that if we know the purpose of the poem we would be able to see it more clearly and understand it better. While I was reading through it for the first time, some parts of the poem seem kind of blurry, but once I read through line 21, “Our two souls therefore, which are one” I was able to grab a hold of Donne’s emotions.
Through the last line of the poem and Donne’s use of the “compass” I can see that no matter where Donne is he will be able to find his way back home, to his wife. In this case the “compass” is a great metaphor to suggest his love to his wife. The second half of the poem seems to be centered around the metaphor of the compass to him and his wife, so in order to understand the imagery I think knowing more about the structure of a compass may help.
First off, great analyses by everyone! I really liked this poem, as it was really deep and had a lot of meaning to it. On my first read, I really didn't understand the poem, but after reading it a second time through, I got more out of it. Here are some of my thoughts:
I thought that the imagery in the first stanza was really interesting, as it seemed to compare a dead man to a lover, with the adjective "whispering." I really like the the juxtaposition of "pass mildly", as it is a unique way of expressing the act of dying. With regards to imagery, the poem ends with the image of a circle, as described by the actions of the narrator and the explicit meaning conveyed by the penultimate line (Thy firmness makes my circle just). I thought it was interesting to understand the journey of the narrator from one symbolic point to another, the end result being the original starting point.
The diction in this poem was also different. I thought that the use of the the words "tear-floods" and "sigh-tempests" in the second stanza was interesting. Also, the use of the phrase "trepidation of the spheres" was unique. I don't really understand how this phrase functions in the context of the poem, but nonetheless, it captivated my interest. In the fourth stanza, I liked the line "Dull sublunary lovers' love." This line had some great alliteration, but also gives the first transition of applying the lessons of the first three stanzas to a different situation. Originally, the poem is describing death, but in the fourth stanza transitions to discussing a lovers' relationship. I also thought the word "elemented" was uniquely used in the fourth stanza. Whenever I usually think of "element", I think of it in the concrete sense of chemistry. But this use of the word seems to be referring to an emotional impact of a love relationship.
The figurative language was plentiful in this poem. The first place I noticed the language was in the second stanza, with the words "tear-floods" and "sigh tempests." Both of these words are hyperboles seem to be referring to an overly intense show of emotion. The sixth stanza also had an interesting metaphor, that of "like gold to airy thinness beat. I felt as though the narrator was referring to the expansion of a relationship in this line, while also understanding the limited amount of resources available. In this sense, the line describes a relationship as somewhat of a "stretch" of all that we have as humans.
First of all I would like thank Mrs. Minor, Westview high school and Blogger for hosting the discussion tonight.
As everyone mentioned before me, everyone before me has already analyzed this poem well and made most of the points I will try to make.
I was of the idea that one could only mourn dead people, but I was wrong. With the title of this poem the speaker tells the audience that this is a goodbye, but she (I suppose) should not be sad about.
I'm going to go out on a limb and try to string a conceit the speaker makes about physical love and the type of love the speaker has experienced. The whole second, third, fourth and fifth stanzas are connected by the themes of two types of love and being sublunary or from the implied opposite. That is why earthly things or physical expressions like "tear-floods" and "sigh-tempests" would be telling "the laity of our love." Insofar, no one knows about their love because it hasn't had the physical, earthly part. That part brings "harms and fears" but their higher, more spiritual and religious (implied because the laity does not know about it) love "is innocent." Plain love, "dull sublunary lovers’ love", one that does not extend beyond this earth, or the physical, “cannot admit/ Absence” because absence removes “those things which elemented” the love. The speaker writes that their love was so strong they did not even understand it, "a love so much refined,/ That ourselves know not what it is," but clearly that it, like Natalie wrote, 'transcends the physical:' "We...care less...to miss" "eyes, lips and hands,"
Through separation their love does not break or cause a "breach" (because in essence their souls "are one") but instead expands "like gold to airy thinness beat." The word "breach" leads me back to "tear-floods," again saying she should not cry or mourn for his parting.
Then comes the other conceit, not extended metaphor nick, about them being like the two legs of a compass. He calls her his stable, "fixed foot" and himself "th' other foot" "who must...obliquely run." The poem starts out like it is about death but finishes like it is about a journey. "Thy firmness makes my circle just,/ And makes me end, where I begun." Then again, life is a journey.
I definitely think the imagery used in this poem draws on a very different perceptual set and the reader is challenged almost to feel things, which in a way is consistent with the premise of the poem being (Nick mentioned this differently) loving without remorse.
I don't know why, but the imagery with gold in the sixth stanza is particularly striking. Like Grace mentioned, the act of the gold becoming thinner is a great parallel to love. I also think that "sigh tempests" in the second stanza is a very interesting choice of diction that signifies extreme outward expression of emotion.
I'm not sure if anyone else is as enamored with the last two lines as I am:
"
Thy firmness makes my circle just,
And makes me end where I begun"
The juxtaposition of density/depth (firmness) to continuity/form (circle) gives this piece a great deal of dimension. Just like the gold example which many of you, myself included, brought up, these last two lines give it filling. As though the poem is relieving emptiness, like that which accompanies sorrow.
The sixth line : " No tear-floods, nor sigh-tempests move " stood out to me because of its tremendous imagery. "floods" is an evident hyperbole for crying, but its juxtaposition to "tempests" (both being storm related terms) work with synergy to have an even greater effect.
"Such wilt thou be to me, who must,
Like th' other foot, obliquely run "
I thought this was a very simple idea, with a very strong emotion within it. Using this as a metaphor for a relationship, it shows that as a person cannot progress properly when one foot is absent, so this person is crippled without his partner.
The Idea this poem conveyed to me was about how Love unifies souls. That although death took away the physical, the strong love had unified and concreted their souls. And as one departs the other one remains, yet still together.
Good analysis, Natalie! I was confused about the compass metaphor, but it makes more sense now.
I think Donne uses a lot of figurative language that deals with circles and a feeling of eternity -- planets, compass, and moon. This enhances the theme that love is eternal, and those truly in love feel complete within each other. He contrasts this with "dull sublunary lovers' love" that's only based on physical attraction and physical presence, with a love that holds strong even during absence.
Also, he (the speaker) develops his theme by contrasting the "laity" and himself, apparently a member of the clergy. He believes it's better to restrain your feelings than to "tell the laity of our love." Perhaps this is more a metaphorical use of "laity" than literally comparing the everyday man to a clergyman. Donne uses this reference well to contrast mundane love and the special love the speaker of the poem shares with his beloved.
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